Thank you. This gave me the extra height and slope that the 1st mud layer would have been provided. Thanks for the question and sorry it wasn’t more clear. Do I need a metal lath to finish the mud deck and dam to do without it? So, I am cocerned with the gap and looking for some expert’s opinion on how to fix it. My question is in the shower, tile on walls to ceiling. Another option may be to lightly tap the mortar with a hammer to loosen any brittle sections of the mortar and then apply a topping layer of a latex-fortified thin-set to create a smooth surface. Back in January, we had a leak in our kitchen ceiling. Probably the take home message is to carry the shower liner well up the wall behind the backer board. I then added a second layer of floor mud over the shower liner to install the tile on. The total thickness of the main slab (non recessed area) will be 6″ (includes 2″ rigid insulation – R10 & 12mil vapor barrier). I just free handed the mortar around the curb using two floats. After coming across your site I now have questions for my contractor. If building a shower over a basement slab I would do everything essentially the same, with the exception of using lumber for the curb. It is thick and when touches it plastic/PVC. In the first post and the first photo, what is the black stuff on the wall and wood? The crack, according to my contractor, is pretty long, like goes across the shower pan(~30in side). If the drain was changed out are there any weep holes exposed and ready for the new shower pan preparation? Build curb (if using wood). Hi Gary, This is a picture of the second mud pan of my shower. I am installing a shower pan. One big caution though, some of these kits may fool users into using the kit in a way that does not pitch the first base layer of mortar (see Quick Pitch example here) leaving the shower liner flat, without slope toward the drain. Install the Tile Base floor drain – it is not necessary to add metal lath here, some do some don’t (I did). Shower pan cutaway from FIne Home Building Magazine, https://cabindiy.com/how-to/tile-a-shower/, http://www.homedepot.com/p/Custom-Building-Products-VersaBond-White-50-lb-Fortified-Thinset-Mortar-MTSW50/100091767. Do I need to follow same steps for base or can I apply directly to cement floor? I would like any suggestions to help prevent failures. Thanks for the questions and sharing your project. Or, if you haven’t installed the cement board yet, use a smooth faced product approved as a shower tile backer for the entire room and simply paint the areas not to be tiled. Hi John, Sorry for the confusion. Once water passes through the shower floor surface, it readily moves through the mortar shower pan bed to the shower liner. First mud layer of shower pan (the first layer, sloped to the drain) 2. It drains into my hallway. If your shower will have a door, pick it out in advance to make sure the shower opening will accommodate it. Cut out shower liner and install drain clamp and drain riser. Actually I love mastic because you don’t have to mix thinset and there is almost no waste. I’m going to follow your site step-by-step when I working on my shower later this week. This includes tile grout lines and the mortar bed of the shower. Thank you! Mortar is water resistant but readily water permeable. Your questions: The liner is then laid over this cured first layer and sealed to the drain clamp. Thank you so much, you have been big help. No matter the mortar used to patch, I would paint the areas to be patched with the latex admixture straight out of the bottle prior to patching, this will likely improve the adhesion of the patch. Once the backer board is removed, install a tradtional shower liner. Once you get your framing fixed, pouring a shower pan over a concrete slab is essentially the same as pour it over plywood. *Do not use the red guard or any other like waterproofing on mortar that has no pre-slope underneath. Sloping the underside of a shower bench (or a shelf), in theory, makes some sense – especially if you expect that surface to get wet. Wow this post has inspired so many people! Understanding the drain comes in two main parts you will need the bottom part of the drain flange (where the bolts are received) to be roughly 1/2 inch above the subfloor (plywood). Now you have a water proof barrier that will help keep water out of your walls. Hope all is well! Since this article was first published, new materials have become available for projects like this. I would staple or otherwise affix it, but that would put holes in the liner! Need to build a rolling shower. You might want to try a new bag of mortar mix too. Latex may help to strengthen the layer, especially if it is somewhat thin (it appears thin in the photo). Although there are many ready-made shower pan systems available, it’s hard to beat a traditional hand-made mortar shower pan. Understanding the challenge of creating a waterproof built in shower bench that connects to the shower floor, I would suggest considering a shelf style shower bench like the Better Bench System by Innovis. Probably because I have been using a CPE liner for a while. Just be sure to not injury the shower liner when filling in with thin set. There are additives used in thin-set mortars to improve the performance of these compound for their intended use (tile application) that may not be useful in creating a thick, sloped mortar bed. Installing the shower liner by first measuring and cutting it to the proper size. You called the manufacturers and got their professional advice regarding their products. This surface must be smooth prior to installing the shower liner to prevent damaging the liner. Pour (pack) the top mud layer. I added this for some reinforcement at the base of the shower wall. Just don’t use and fasteners to hold the shower line on as they will penetrate the liner and lead to water passage and eventual rot of the underlying wood. They applied one layer. Then, pick your shower tile and use this guide for step-by-step instructions on how to tile a shower… I send a picture i hope toy can help and I appreciate you help. In actuality this will be 1 1/2 inches roughly to account for the bottom flange being 1/2 inch above the subfloor. and acrylic or latex admixtures are not necessarily required but will add strength and durability to the shower pan. Thanks, Gary. The advantage of using fortified thinset for the add-on slope is the likely improved flexibility and stability of these products when applied thin. I know it has been a few years since the original post, but thought it was worth a shot. I am concerned about installing the liner over the irregular shape. Nonetheless, I wanted to offer a great solution for many who are concerned of any wire reinforcing puncturing the liner. and contribute to building material failure. Pack in mortar to fill depressions, and scrape off excess in the high spots. Please advise. 2) I was reading the instructions of the mud bed I intend to use and it mentions to put the wire mesh in the middle of the mortar layer. this is after two coats of Redgard, do you think I can get a way with that? I would guess that your mortar was too dry and not completely packed when you applied it. I am using an adjustable drain and confused where the top layer mortar sits with the drain. Once the backer board is installed, place your top mortar layer, embedding the bottom of the backer board within this top mortar pour. But, because these compounds are organic, the tend to not stand up to wet environments and can support bacterial and mold grow. Is it better to use backer board around my shower basin vs./ Duroroc? I think removing the lower backer board is a good plan. Some leave a gap between the bottom edge of the backer board and the top of the finished shower pan (idea is to avoid water wicking), and some will embed the bottom of the backer board in the top mud layer of the shower pan to help stabilize the backer board. Many place a wire mesh reinforcement layer in the top mortar layer too. I really try to stay away from using any plastics nowadays, but for some applications it’s a great solution. I just can’t sleep with one coat of Redgard! A mortar shower pan is so much nicer than a store-bought fiberglass unit. Is this the type of shower you are looking to build: Accessible shower build on Houzz, Here is another pic here the cement moves. For me I would lean toward option 2. then he put first mud pan, then liner, then second mud pan. Thanks. Consider adding membrane reinforcement at the front and back corner of the bench during the paint-on membrane application. Share 36. How did you attach the liner to the drain? 5. When fastening the backer board to the wall DO NOT USE FASTENERS OVER THE LOWER PORTION OF THE BACKER BOARD THAT LAYS OVER THE INSTALLED SHOWER LINER!!! The hot mopped pan should be built on a pre-slope foundation (the same the first sloped mud layer you would use under a shower pan liner) and sealed to the shower drain. However the tiles have lifted and the thinset underneath has softened and gone mushy around the drain about 5 weeks daily use. Is there a way to do it without take off the newly added stud? This middle layer serves the special purpose of redirecting any shower wastewater that has passed through the surface of the shower floor back into the drain. Do you have any suggestions on this? You should have a minimum slope of 1/4″ of drop per one foot of run. I would only do this if most of the top mortar layer is fairly solid and sound (it doesn’t appear very solid in your photo). I’m very hesitant to cut but if that is the best option, can I use extra liner with Oatley shower liner adhesive as a patch? Rick-O-Matic. Then fill the shower pan with water and inspect for leaks. Pour and slope second mud layer over shower liner and curb. I don’t know if they make one of if so what the cost, but that would be great. How much of a tile do you allow for the last course? Tweet. If you are building your shower directly on concrete you do not need tar paper. The top of the shower curb should provide a continuous, waterproof path back to the shower pan and shower drain. I would then use caulk on this bottom joint and not grout. let it dry for roughly 2 minutes and then attach them together. And would I apply the same method as the curb in terms of felt paper/mesh/mortar/ rub membrane/ mortar and mesh? That said, please forgive me if I missed seeing my questions that have been answered previously. Anyway I guess the question is, with the tile now removed, should I be pulling up the mud, doing pitched layer of mud then another membrane and some more mud and getting rid of that layer of red guard (has that caused the thinset to stay wet and fail)? Do not install a shower liner on a flat subfloor or flat base mortar layer! You should consider replacing the existing lumber with treated lumber. If you do this secure the wire with roofing nails at the front face (and maybe the outter most top edge) only of the curb to help prevent water entry behind the shower liner. The base or lower mud layer should be sloped to the drain. I would smooth the liner if possible and not cut it. There are several commercial systems designed to seal the top surface of the shower pan directly to the drain, but these use specially designed drains and waterproofing fabric. Here is a good article which touches on pouring a shower pan on a basement slab: Shower pan over concrete slab, Gary, I’m wondering if you mortared your dam on top of the shower liner? Nonetheless, it’s nice of you to share this information with the public, I wish I had the time to do the same. Lastly, pour your top mortar layer embedded the bottom edge of the backer board in the top mortar layer. one without the other) over a bathtub when renovating in order to increase the available floor space and make the bathroom feel larger Once this top mortar bed has cured, install your shower pan tile of choice using an appropriated thin set adhesive and grout. Finally, the top mud layer is placed. To make the mortar, begin by dry-mixing the mortar mix (even if from a premixed bagged product) thoroughly with a hoe to ensure proper sand and cement contact. Cut the backer board a few feet up from the base. Again, work from the back of the shower to the front. Indeed I wasn’t wondering about the possibility of installing backerboard *before* the liner (which sounds quite bad); instead just about the whether the backerboard is tucked down into the top mortar layer (as shown in th diagram) or not. Use care not to penetrate or damage the shower liner with the wire mesh or tools while building this top layer of the curb. Regarding your shower design and linear drain, I would carefully read the install instructions from the manufacturer, since there are many different designs. In the mean time Gary might be back with more insight. Now when you pour your top mortar layer, the backer board will be incorporated into the mortar bed. I don’t like the pan liner-mud pan-Redgard idea because people say it traps the water inside the mud pan. If he is busy and doesn’t please feel free to ask more details. If you remove the top drain grate, the level of mortar at the drain will be just below or close to flush with the drain collar. Any additional advice you can give about the folds and/or cuts in the vinyl liner up and over the curb? Thanks for visiting the site and thanks for the question. I was noticing that there is conflicting information with regards to the ordering of the installation of the backer board and the top mortar layer. Pre-fabricated shower stall units are usually fiberglass or acrylic kits created in a factory and shipped to your home in one or several pieces. when converting to shower would it be adequate size. A leaky shower pan will lead to many problems involving mold and/or rot, and is a nightmare to … I would think carefully about the grit choice as you would want the right mix of anti-slip, foot-feel, wet durability and look. With this in mind, I would cut at least 2 feet out around the lower portion of the backer board to give yourself room to add some fasteners at the top. It’s like my bible for rebuilding a moldy shower. The house has a crawlspace and not a basement. But I guess he didn’t put nails down on the pan liner in many of them. For the curb, standard 2×4’s are to narrow for the 4 inch blocks, is forming and pouring a cement curb our only option? Without knowing more about which linear drain you plan to use, it would be difficult to guide you on membrane install. The concern regarding wicking of water by the backer board and suggestion to gap the backer board at the bottom; this is in regard to the position of the bottom edge of the backer board compared to the shower liner. 3) For the curb, would it be fine for me to cover the wood with beckerboard instead of using the mesh and mortar? Having taken the time to read all of the questions posted and your answers I do still have a couple of questions. Hi Kenny, Thanks for the question. My question / concern is how this will impact my pebbles placed around the drain for the weep holes to function. Feb 7, 2020 - Explore Lisa McPhail's board "DIY shower", followed by 1080 people on Pinterest. The question then becomes: can I pour a pre-slope up against the installed backer board, lay down multiple coats of Redguard on the entire pre-slope and walls up to the ceiling to create a waterproof membrane, then pour final slope, then tile, or is that too risky from a waterproofing standpoint? If you must cut the liner at the curb or for complex corners, use commercially available patch kits with the proper liner adhesive to cover the cuts. Big Thanks and a Big handshake to you, that you TAKE THE TIME to help us with Correct information! Your way, however, eliminates the issue with the line where the wall meets the base not being as precise and seems to make for a neater line. If you are happy with the drain, you might consider reusing it. The reason is that when using vapor barriers installed behind the backerboard, fasteners will penetrate the barrier providing a path for water into the wall cavity. (You’ve provided some GREAT info on this site!). Good luck and let us know what you do! Nail in permanent 1-inch thick screed boards against walls. They will be covered by nearly two inches of mortar. You will likely not need to add much additional slope as the slope was already added to the first mud layer. THe floor tile is staying. Use the packed mortar as a guide for screeding off the mortar between the wall and the drain. As for the install of the liner in the pan, the shower liner should be sandwiched between two concrete mud layers. The top layer will cover the liner, but you should avoid wrinkles in the liner that could hold water. What would you recommend I use for the final top cover of the shower pan (on top of the mortar bed) if I am not going to tile it? Generally, latex admixtures are substituted for some of the water in the mix. You can then just tile over the paint-on waterproof barrier once it is dry. You may need to rip out walls or the ceiling below the shower to accomplish hook-ups if the next level down is finished. What comes next? 5. Adjust the height of the drain throat to allow for the desired mortar thickness with consideration for the final thickness of the tile and thin set to be installed. Do you put backerboard right over it to tile? The benefit of the mesh is strength and stability. Add tile and caulk the corner. Cut and install drain base. Thanks and your website is excellent! Then just install them as suggested in #2 above. The recent building code changes also require flood testing of all shower pans. You mentioned you would float the mortar up to the top surface of the linear drain after you slipped in place? I don’t know how the subfloor is constructed because he didn’t go that far. Can I use a couple coats of Redgard instead of a liner? Think of a built-in shower bench as a flat build out of the shower wall that will need to be waterproof. This is probably not the best practice and considering the relative ease of adding some form of blocking, I would recommend doing so. Remember that the mortar bed is only the structural base for the shower liner and tile at the surface. I highly recommend only using a paint-on waterproofing agent (like I did) and not placing a moisture barrier behind the shower walls. You should also be sure you are using the proper thinset designed to be used in wet locations. Prior to laying the shower liner on the shower pan, clean the cured mortar surface of the pan to remove any potential abrasive debris that could damage the shower liner. Thank you so much for the tutorial! You can buy this premixed in bags as “floor mix”, “deck mud” and a few other names. For the plumbing cavity, you could use some foam board with cutouts for the plumbing. I am not saying that your tile guy doesn’t care because to a certain degree it looks as though he does, but most things that I see are not even close to normal protocol. It is also very important the sand, and cement are very well mixed prior to adding water – you want to coat every grain of sand with cement. The purpose of the slope in a shower pan is to encourage all water toward the drain. Thanks for visiting the site and thanks for your question. Is that not the case? Allow the liner to be slack at the corners and at the intersections of the walls and pre-slope base – you do not want to stretch the liner too tight when you pour the top layer of mud. Are both mortar layers the same ratio portland to sand and the same consistency. Decided to paint shower ceiling. Reply with a photo if you like when you are done with your shower. I put the wire mesh reinforcement in the second layer of concrete instead of the base layer. A simple method to check your mortar bed slope is to use a level. If it is a very small gap (like 1/4″ or less) and the mortar bed is otherwise solid, you likely could just continue on to tiling. Plan for 2″ – 3″ of mortar for this layer. My curb turned out awesome so I don’t want to lose that by such a thick mortar bed. Thanks, Great info Gary. If not at least cut some liner material and make your own patch. I also feel the backer board embedded in the shower pan method provides a more stable shower wall as the backer board is embedded into the pan concrete. For example, if the is 3 feet from the drain, the wall mortar level should start 3/4″ of an inch above the drain edge level. Thin-set mortar is intended for use installing tile and use in thin layers. Asphalt felt over plywood base. I hope that isn’t a big deal. Then install my second and final mud bed and capture all of it while bringing it up to the finished edge of the linear drain. Baffled how you use old school (mortar bed) new variations (backer board), new chemicals (hydroban) to suit your needs with no regard for the future. How to reinforce this stud? Much cheaper to purchase locally because of shipping costs. You can see the height of my curb after my pan build here. Thanks. 1) He didn’t flood test the pan liner. the mesh is just reinforcement for the mortar. You may have heard talk of a pre-slope or seen people wrestling with big sheets of black plastic/vinyl/rubber on TV. Another option is to cut and remove a lower portion (say 2 feet or so) of the tile backer board and then install a traditional shower liner and then reinstall the cut out backer board. From the little I can see from your photo, it appears the bottom plate and studs are not treated lumber. Water that works its way through the grout and the top layer of mortar will flow down the slope to be drained through the weep holes of the drain. Before adding the 2nd mud layer, I coated the bottom 3″ of Hardie Backerboard with Redguard to prevent water weeping into the Backerboard. Hi Shawn, The order of install from mud to shower liner and Redgard should be: 1. If the surface is coarse, you may want to consider placing a layer of roofing felt (tar paper) over the surface of the dry mortar to help avoid any abrasive damage to the shower liner. This gap will help prevent mechanical damage to the shower liner from any movement of the tile backer board over time. Good luck. I am not sure if this is from the forces he used during demolition or it was already there. When you are attaching the drain and figuring for the height you have options on the height. Does the pan liner at least go to the curb height? The other thing I would do, and maybe the most important is seal the backer board you plan to use with a paint on water barrier like red-gard or hydro-ban. Thanks for visiting our site and thanks for the question. These fortified thin-set mortars are excellent for applications requiring excellent bonding (shower walls, ceilings, etc), durability (exterior) and over more difficult substraits (plywood, etc).